For our first episode, we decided to go big right out of the gate and tackle the messy, fascinating world of data, it’s ownership, and why it matters.
We discuss what we even mean when we say “data” in the first place, try to define what counts as environmental data (spoiler: context is everything), and unpack how seemingly harmless bits of information can be stitched together into something powerful (and sometimes terrifying), especially when controlled by big tech and opaque power systems.
And most importantly, we explore what an alternative data ownership model could look like, and how it might help build a more equitable future for all of us.

To learn more, visit https://www.nudata.app/podcast

Additional Reading & Resources

Actionable Pathways: Panic with a Purpose Data Sovereignty Cheatsheet
https://www.nudata.app/articles/actio...

https://doughnuteconomics.org/
https://www.kateraworth.com/doughnut/

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Cast and crew:
Hosts and creators: Nhiyc (Nhi Corcoran) & CJ the EJ Guy (Charles Knoble) 
Producer: Joanna Jastrzebska
Editor: Maxine Beceril

Disclaimer:
This episode reflects a Global North perspective, shaped by English-language sources and Western frameworks - so blind spots exist. We don’t claim objectivity or treat Western frameworks as universal, and we avoid framing impacted communities only as victims.

If we’ve missed something or misrepresented an issue, we welcome your input—this is an ongoing conversation.

speaker-0 (00:00)

And what I'm thinking of is, you see the news about the meta glasses recording things when people were not knowing they were recording things?

speaker-1 (00:09)

Yes. Is that funny?

speaker-0 (00:13)

That is the question. It is kind of funny.

Most of the subjects that I have found in this space are very scary and often harmful. This is one where it was at least harmful and scary with a funny twist.

speaker-1 (00:31)

Okay, but tell me about it.

speaker-0 (00:34)

my understanding was that the metaglasses were inadvertently recording people without their knowledge. And so there were people abroad that were reviewing video footage of the metaglasses without the person's knowledge. And so they were like, yeah, we've definitely been like reviewing people having sex and they didn't know it.

speaker-1 (01:00)

my God.

speaker-0 (01:03)

a little terrifying.

speaker-1 (01:09)

don't know how to process this. first thought was, dang, they can make hella cash on Pornhub. And second thought was, holy sh**, invasion of privacy. And is this, it must be stored, right? In a cloud.

speaker-0 (01:31)

somewhere. This feels like a pretty like straightforward jump from like when everybody was super excited about the Alexa and they were like why am I getting very specific advertising all of a sudden and then it made the jump to why is everything I'm recording everything that I am seeing being recorded in some capacity

speaker-1 (01:50)

Yeah, holy ****. You know, okay, that's actually a good segue because we're talking about data sovereignty and democracy and ownership today. Because theoretically, you know, with the if you own the glasses, you should own everything that it records.

speaker-0 (02:06)

Right? And so in theory, should residuals out of the porn that they are producing for you.

speaker-1 (02:07)

You

Exactly.

speaker-0 (02:15)

Man, this was such a funny subject when I was reading about it. then it's again, it's another terrifying one. They're all terrifying. All of these data subjects are terrifying.

speaker-1 (02:24)

my god, okay, well I guess...

speaker-0 (02:29)

We did it, cold open.

speaker-1 (02:37)

Hey everybody, it's Nhi. Welcome to Panic with a Purpose. As you can tell, I am by myself. CJ isn't here. We were so excited to talk about ⁓ today's topic for this episode, which is data ownership, sovereignty, and democracy that we forgot to actually introduce it. So here I am doing exactly that. So welcome, and I hope you enjoy this Panic with a Purpose episode.

I think the first question is like, why does that data matter at all? Because then you see like people, I've spoken to people in the past who are like, you know, I don't give a shit. They can have, you know, I don't care. I don't have nothing to hide. They can have my data. I'm like, I don't know if the consequences and the implications or the applications, right, of any type of data should be in the hands of somebody else, even if you have nothing to hide.

people change, people evolve, but also, you know, what you were saying before, not in this conversation, but like on our little notes doc, is that data hides more than it reveals a lot of the times. So yeah, why does data even matter? And in this context, environmental, climate, social market, I'm gonna open that up to you because I'm still on the board thing.

speaker-0 (03:56)

Yeah.

Yeah. Excellent. Yes. And I have moved on completely. No worries. I think that is a great question, especially what you said about like the number of people that are out there that have that reaction of, they can take on my data. got nothing to hide. I think that people don't understand what data actually does hold and what happens with data. And I've been in a lot of rooms where people are just even focusing on specific data issues, like talking about.

energy use, when people are like, why would I care if my utility information is out there? If all of my data about when I'm using power, how much power I'm using, to some extent it doesn't matter. Where it's like that is, it's great. That's environmental data. That's something that would be helpful for figuring out when people are using energy and how to reduce energy use over time. But at the same time,

there is so much that you can start to grok from that information about like, hey, I see your utility bill has gone up a little bit. It looks like you got a new appliance. That's really interesting. I noticed that you're normally not home at these times, but now I can see you are home at these times because your power usage is going up at these times. How interesting is that? All of these information can start to track together. Oh, I noticed that between seven and eight on these days, you are always home and the TV is on. That means you must be watching this show.

There is so much information you can start to grok all of a sudden from what feels like basic information. But on the environmental side, it's like, well, no, if we had all of this data open source, maybe we could make better decisions about how we're using energy and how to use renewable energy and things like that.

speaker-1 (05:32)

I, from what you were saying, think it's when, if I can re rephrase so that I can see if I understand what you said correctly is each data point by itself, when we're talking about like energy usage, for example, that is being monitored, ⁓ is harmless. But when it's strung together with other data that's being tracked,

like your ⁓ location on your phone, your IP, when you log into specific devices, where you are, and then this is how marketers also like ⁓ gain access to your behavior, Is whose device is close by and then guessing from who you're actually in the vicinity of, you generally get ⁓ customized ads. You know, given that, if you're friends with this person who likes...

I don't know, chocolate ice cream, then you must like chocolate ice cream or chocolate products, which means you might be in the same age range or whatever, whatever it is. ⁓ and that can be really dangerous, not inherently because of the data itself, but because it's not transparent and honest in terms of informing the end user of how their data is being used and by whom. Is that right?

speaker-0 (06:54)

Absolutely.

speaker-1 (06:56)

So then ⁓ in terms of environmental data, when you said, hey, we need to make it more transparent so that we can take more action, I think we actually have so much data that it's paralyzing decision makers, ⁓ heads of states.

legislators, right, ⁓ even people in the private sector corporations, there seems to never be enough data. And so where's that balance? You know, why is there an impression that we don't have enough data? And at the same time, we do have a lot of data, maybe it's fragmented, and then thus we can't make any decisions and beyond that, any action towards climate.

or even beyond climate justice, know, like just preserving our planet because we have limited resources.

speaker-0 (07:56)

That's one of the more terrifying things to me in the space that we do have this propensity to, we just need to collect more data. We need to collect more information and then we'll be able to act. I think to your point about like, this is an issue for climate change at large. It is this attitude that we, in order to stop climate change, we feel like we need to make the perfect choice. know, EVs are not going to stop climate change, but they are maybe part of the solution.

People always think that we just need to figure out what the next big thing is. We just need to have a little bit more data. And that brings in that question of uncertainty that people feel too, of like, you know, the argument that the climate has always been changing. We don't have that much data about what climate used to be. And so we don't know for sure if this is actually a climate catastrophe or if this is just the climate being the climate and this is just regular fluctuation. We just need to have perfect data.

speaker-1 (08:55)

fuck those guys. You in danger girl.

speaker-0 (08:58)

The combination of scientists that have this propensity to say, you know, we don't know anything. Science is all about like, are making inferences based off the data that we have and the information that we're gathering and taking that and running with it and saying, well, then we don't have enough data and we should just keep digging until we are sure because the implications for giving up fossil fuels are too large and would save the planet. So that's a problem.

speaker-1 (09:27)

I think it's like... okay, wait. I'm getting frustrated because you are 100 % correct and there is... maybe there's this... okay, I will not out myself as a control freak because I feel like I've progressed in the past two decades. Sure, Jan. But I do understand the human need to like, be sure, be certain, and like control every external aspect because what if we're wrong and it costs us our time, our energy, our money?

Right? Especially with the way that we've set up the economic incentives of GDP is one of the only measures of true progress and growth. There's always exponentially more to strive for. And so the risks are inherently higher. Now, do I fully understand why we perceive the risk of economic deterioration higher than the risk of being wiped off the face of the planet?

I don't know, you tell me, like what the fuck? ⁓ But do you think this is then an issue, because it's like two sides of the same coin, you know? Do you think the issue is maybe trust from academia science versus the people who might need or want to implement against this sort of data, if we're talking about environment?

data, environmental data, we should probably define this actually, what is environmental data, because it's so all-encompassing, we'll circle back. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

speaker-0 (11:05)

I think trust is a really interesting word when it comes to environmental data. I think that's a really good question that I would love the answer to. I think that trust is something that is eroded in a big way for a lot of people between people in the government, people in scientists, people in tech. I think that we consistently have this antagonistic feeling of trying to

do what we must to keep ourselves afloat. And as a result, are defensive. I was talking to somebody recently about, ⁓ you know, Captain Planet, the old TV show Captain Planet. Where there is this large green dude who is, yeah, the team that is trying to save the planet and often those shows are.

depicting an antagonist as like big oil and they're just making big oil into like these big guys that you can punch. And a lot of the times that is the easiest way to tell those kinds of stories, especially to kids that are just interested in the big people with the colorful colorful outfits. But there are also the reality of people that when they try to come to terms with some of those

characteristics and stories that are being told. There are people that work in the fossil fuel industry that are like, can't afford to pay rent. I can't afford my healthcare. And you are telling me that I'm destroying the planet by doing my job. And so that trust feels like it erodes so quickly because we are all on this back foot and fighting to survive. And so people want to, want to prove that they deserve to live.

when at the end of day what we're trying to say with this environmental data is like, yes, we all deserve to live. And what we are seeing is that the decisions that larger corporations are making is actually the thing that is trying to kill all of us together. It is this antagonistic feeling of survival that is pitting us against each other when we don't need to be. That is how I feel.

speaker-1 (13:15)

Yeah, I mean, like, I think, yeah, I'm inclined to agree with you because it seems like you have your pitting sides, right? And really there isn't a side, there's just humanity and planet. And we should try to cultivate, like, we as human beings, if we're, you know, if I can assume, I'm not gonna assume this is the reality, we have huge egos. And ⁓ if-

We do have that huge ego and the noble thing is like, fuck, okay, don't save the planet because you you care about it. It's because your ego is so huge that you want to, you know, have dominion over the planet and therefore fucking protect your resources. Damn! And you know, when you're saying, okay, fossil fuel, people working in fossil fuel and we're not saying execs because listen, they're like... ⁓

You know, like rig workers, people who are like doing logistics, for example, is the people who have the least security or feel the right. And then plus that social pressure and economic pressure that they have, because usually they're underpaid for what they do. ⁓ fossil fuels still powers like most of the world and renewables are catching up really quickly, but not yet as fast for us to completely flip the switch. You know, 100 % no burning.

versus 100 % renewable, which is why I think the work that the Circle economy and the ILO and a lot of other nonprofits are doing for the just transition is so important because it tries to ensure that this sort of labor or labor workforce from fossil fuel has the skills to adapt with the energy transition as well as just like climate transition into different

roles within the same sector, they could see an energy or they could adopt like other skill sets to go beyond energy, for example, into ⁓ education, into more white color jobs, et cetera. So it's just like, you know, with the invention of the internet and the computer and any technological advances. now I guess with AI or generative AI is we need to upskill, we need to upskill massively and we need to do it in a way where it doesn't continue to discriminate and ⁓

create larger disparities between the working classes so that we can offer security as we transition into a better time on our planet. Okay, your turn to talk. I'm like, my brain is... Monkey with symbols.

speaker-0 (15:57)

That was excellent. mean, this is a weird.

This is good. We just keep going. There is something about like trying to have a conversation, but also trying to structure it that is so hard. ⁓

speaker-1 (16:11)

Yeah,

maybe we should fuck the structure in. I'll allow it. It by the way is not scripted, but we're just like, very excited about how much work we put into the re-

speaker-0 (16:19)

⁓

We've tried to read so much and we just are like, how do we talk about everything that we care about in 45 minutes maximum?

speaker-1 (16:27)

We're losing it, but it's fine. It's fine. If you're still here with us, thank you so much for your support. Please send us emotional support. Stuffed animals.

speaker-0 (16:36)

We've been sponsored by Mother Earth. Please support her.

speaker-1 (16:40)

Yes,

please.

speaker-0 (16:43)

Maybe we should define, I think to your point, we should probably define what we're talking about with environmental data. And then I also want to get your feelings on like, what is the level of panic that we feel around how we as the human race relate to environmental data as a whole. But let's start with the first one. Like how do we define environmental data, climate data, environmental data?

speaker-1 (17:08)

Wait, you want me to answer that? Damn.

speaker-0 (17:12)

I

know, right? did those good ones. Let's go.

speaker-1 (17:14)

How

do we define in before? This is like.

I don't like labels is my answer.

speaker-0 (17:24)

Yes, I know that's the worst part is like the both words are kind of crazy. Everything is the environment and everything is data. Yeah. Especially like if we expand it out more like climate data, everything is climate. Everything is data.

speaker-1 (17:37)

I'm going to start with the easy one, which I feel is data.

and

I definitely shouldn't teach because simplifying this is a struggle. If we're starting with data, data to me means any set of...

as objectively factual.

quantitative or qualitative pieces of information. So it could be pulled from a study, rigorous perhaps, or not. We're not gonna like question integrity at this time. Or it could, to me, like knowledge, for example, right? Something that's like passed on and then codified in some formal way, like for example, ⁓ oral history.

and then it's codified on the internet or in a book or in a library or like in a movie or in video, to me that's data. Now, I don't know if people listening or you would actually agree with such a broad term, but I think it's really important that I emphasize that it has to be codified into some formal way where it can be used and passed on or shared. So it's not like...

You I was watching Lincoln Lawyer. It's not like hearsay. It's not like if I say something and then I'm talking to you about it and then you regurgitate it and it's like, that's not data. You know, ⁓ it could be gossip. Do we gossip about data? Maybe. But it, that doesn't take the form of data for me. So yes, it's still nebulous, but it's formalized. Now, when we talk about environmental data.

It's a little bit more scary to me because immediately as a person that is in this sector, and I put sector in quotation points because climate is in everything, in every sector, it's not its own sector, right? ⁓ Then I would say that environmental, anything environmental data related is...

anything that would inherently impact human rights or planetary rights. Which again,

Broad strokes. So let's say the porn data that we were talking about. Meta recording, whatever. Okay, different example. I'm so sorry. Meta glasses, a lot of influencers are using them to review food and restaurants, right? To me, that's not environmental data unless it's put into context that relates to, I don't know, the economic well-being of a specific region.

that is using specific types of resources to continue to grow. So when it's clumped together like that, that's environmental data. But recording a mom and pop shop and it's a food review, to me, that's, I don't know, just content or entertainment.

speaker-0 (20:59)

I like that. I think that's, that was, I, that was a great response. I really liked that. I'm here for it. It sounds like you're saying information that is codified and then context is what places it back in that form of climate or environmental data in particular. I'm a fan. Yeah. I just listened to you talk and then I decided to summarize. That's why I made you go first is I just got to take that and like bring it in.

speaker-1 (21:18)

Can you set that in three?

speaker-0 (21:29)

We used to do this activity for students where we would try to get them to guess what the real definition on Miriam Webster updated was. And it was one of my favorite activities because it sucks. It sucks so much and everybody walks away like, God, because everybody's mad at the end. That's why it sucks.

speaker-1 (21:47)

So what's the

question? thank you.

speaker-0 (21:50)

You ready? We have two options. One of these is fake. One of these is real. The first definition is data is factual information such as measurements or statistics used as a basis for reasoning, discussion, and calculation. That's number one.

speaker-1 (22:13)

Okay.

speaker-0 (22:15)

The

second one is information that is output by a sensing device or organ and that must be processed to be meaningful.

speaker-1 (22:28)

Can both of us be wrong?

speaker-0 (22:30)

What a good

question. The key parts of two of these is the very first one. defines the very first thing it says about what data is, is it is factual information, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The second one it says information, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, must be processed to be meaningful.

speaker-1 (22:47)

Given what I said, I feel like the second one should be the correct one.

speaker-0 (22:52)

And most people would agree. Most people would agree. And this is what makes people mad is both of these definitions are in the Merriam-Webster dictionary for defining data.

speaker-1 (23:04)

but they're contradicting.

speaker-0 (23:07)

They're both true. They are both how data is defined by Merriam-Webster dictionary. The second one has got the philosophy tag next to it, just to make it even more frustrating.

speaker-1 (23:20)

Thank

speaker-0 (23:22)

Philosophical data has to be interpreted, but regular data, facts. Facts straight up.

speaker-1 (23:30)

Okay, well then maybe this begs the question of why the f*** data is important at all because if we can even agree on the definition of data and by the way it's not just because of the dictionary and the conversation between the two of us who work in the sector there are a lot of stakeholders that don't are not experts in neither data nor climate ⁓ or justice who are working on

you know, these problems or these challenges. So why is that? So why is data held at such significance where it's paralyzing us from taking any action or meaningful action?

speaker-0 (24:15)

It feels like we can choose the definition that we want to make it useful. And that's exactly what corporations are doing is they're choosing when it should be paralyzing and when it's just enough information that they should move forward with what they want. And that is crazy.

speaker-1 (24:31)

Yeah, I mean that's inherently human, right? Because why would you not do something that's advantageous, clearly, to your own interests as, you know, an organization or an individual? So if this is the case, who do you think needs to have, yeah, ownership or purview, or I guess any power over data and who gets to control it, right? Because we produce data.

Our data is being sold and bought all the time as individuals and as companies and organizations as well. But right now at the top of my head, it seems like most of the control is in ⁓ organized structures that are not beneficial to individual humans.

speaker-0 (25:17)

I think that this is like, this framing, I think is the thing that is the most terrifying to me. When we talk about, you know, how much do you panic about data and its relationship to people? I think power is the thing that makes me the most panic. It's when you think about the current structure of power around data, that puts my panic up here rather than down here. Because to your point, the current structures of data are very much embedded in government

entities and in large corporations that have this power to control a lot of the data that is coming in that is generated at all and where it is going, how it is being used. I think in particular in the past, I've done research on how to take things like Google search data and apply it to different environmental contexts.

And that felt like a really fun, cool idea for detecting environmental hazards, to be able to say, hey, there's something going on in this community that is bad because everybody is Googling, what's wrong with my water? Something's going on with my home.

those kinds of information feel like they can be super helpful. I'm getting that information from Google, from a large entity that has created a product that as a result tracks data, shares data, uses data, and doesn't tell us about how they're doing any of those things. So I have this very surface level of information about the data that is out there, and I'm trying to apply it to some level of good. And at the same time, that data is being owned by this large corporation that is doing

deep deep deep research about how they can get more data and use that data to advertise to you better. That feels like a crazy thing when we're saying that data is important and environmental data could save the world and we need more of it when we don't have any idea how much we even have because of the power structures that are in place now.

speaker-1 (27:15)

Yeah. And it's all very obscure and opaque. Right. okay. My panic level just reached like an all time high. Thank you. I would argue that this is probably power dynamics and just power over data is the same as power with anything in society, right? ⁓ Over resources or just power in itself, right? Influence.

speaker-0 (27:26)

Welcome, join me.

speaker-1 (27:43)

⁓ because it can impact your quality of life, your job security, you know, can be homeless in like two seconds ⁓ if you get laid off because of the rate of inflation and how infrastructure is, especially in the US and in countries that are not supporting social systems. ⁓ But to what you say, how do we balance like, okay, trying to like educate ourselves, getting all of this data, but then having no idea how

data we actually have. Does that actually even matter? Right? Because then I think it loops us back around to we have so much data, let's figure out, like, investigate how much data we have. In the meanwhile, climate crisis continues to accelerate and we're still not doing any sort of impactful, by the way, broad strokes, because there are a lot of cool things happening that are insanely impactful.

regardless of this panicking mode that we're in. But I think maybe I'm more inclined to think of it this way is I don't care how much data is out there because I don't think I as an individual can control how much Google, Microsoft, ⁓ know, fucking Ellison ⁓ Corporation has already of our data, my data, individual or not.

But from this day forward, I want control and ownership over what is rightfully mine as a citizen of the world and a human being and my personal data that I continue to generate because it's not like we stopped generating data today, right? Especially with the tech we're using. So for me, I'm like, okay, the actual question is who now has sovereignty and how do we dictate that sovereignty in order to continue?

An actionable path, The actionable motherfucking Christ.

The pathway ⁓ of what happens to data that becomes meaningful and knowledgeable turns into action.

speaker-0 (29:58)

Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (30:00)

Bro.

speaker-0 (30:04)

straight

up that pulls me off that ledge a little bit though. Like I think that the fear that I have stems from this feeling of, know, there is an uncontrollable amount of data that I have no power over because somebody else has dictated how they are going to extract from me. feel powerless as a result of that. But to your point, there are certain levels of power that I have as an individual to control the data that is in my realm. There are regulations out there that say I can dictate what

data people are taking from me that I can ask to be forgotten and have data deleted or to have it modified to more correctly represent me. And like that is something that I could actionably do. Like I could go online and look at how to do each of these processes. And I think that it reminds me too that there are

Because data is such a broad definition, like I am talking about the forms of data that people with, or not people, but entities, entities with people that have more power than me are dictating what data is and what data they're collecting. I can also define data for myself and start to reshape the stories that are being told by that data. And for me, that means, you know, I'm living in a community that has an environment and

There are lots of environmental data that exists out there and lots of other data sets that exist out there about my community. But I can also generate new data and information and put it out into the world in whatever way I see fit. If there was a story that's being told by the data that exists right now, and I want to counter that story, it's easy to create something that is a form of data that can be shared, that can be shared openly, and that can help to tell those stories. I think that one of those things is

somewhat climate related, like affordable housing is a big issue where I am in California. And there are a lot of stories about what it means to build new affordable housing, what it means to the kind of housing that people could actually live in, they could afford to live in, especially students or people that are lower income. And those stories are often dictated by

Real estate companies that have lots of money and are able to do lots of advertising and collect lots of information and engage with people that they know are going to agree with not wanting to have affordable housing units. I can very easily tell a different story and talk to people who are looking for affordable housing and tell their story and show data on those people. That's something that I could do just walking down the street. I could talk to people, I can interview them, I could write down how they're feeling.

And I can publish that as a journal article. I can publish it as a data set. I can publish it in a lot of different ways that is suddenly counterfactual. And then I'm generating data on a small level that is counterfactual to the large data set that's out there. And I can't publish to all of Google and beat them in that sense. But for my community, that is something that people would actually see and would actually engage with too. Soapbox done.

speaker-1 (33:13)

I would say, I really like that example, is I would argue it's not a small thing, you know? And that's why social media is so powerful, because it actually gives a level of access and transparency. Of course, there's the algorithm, but ⁓ that people would not otherwise have experience or ⁓ the privilege to... Is it a privilege? I don't know. The privilege to...

Choose to pay attention to. Right. you see all of these like Hopecore sort of videos, I'm always on them and I'm crying all the time, but it gives me so much warmth, kind of away from the panic. So when people are Oh, are you doom scrolling? I'm like, no, am a hoops.

speaker-0 (34:00)

I'm home scrolling.

speaker-1 (34:02)

Like giving my

like dose, you know, I my fix so I can carry on. And I think and I would argue also, you know, when you're talking about, oh, maybe the housing, you know, because you're in California situation or crisis, in fact, is not climate related. It actually is. Because if you take kind of circle back to our economic model that focuses on GDP, basically exponential growth, right. And

then consider something like Donut Economics, where I will put this resource in the

speaker-0 (34:40)

Tell me more, what's doing in economics? Give me more.

speaker-1 (34:42)

Very simplified,

two seconds, is the model ⁓ has two rings and I'm pretty sure I'm gonna actually describe this wrong because I'm a visual thinker. Basically in the inner ring is what you have as the basic human needs. Housing, ⁓ food, fair access to natural resources, water, etc. And in the outer ring, so it's like a donut because there's a hole in them,

⁓ In the outer ring are all of the planetary boundaries that we can't supersede because of the limited resources that we do have on the planet. And so what we should be considering instead of GDP is if all of those needs are met and we continue to grow in a, maybe not a degrowth, but in a regenerative growth structure within our planetary boundaries, no one gets left behind in the hole.

So in that sense, housing is super important to be worked on even if it's not on its own classified as classified classified as a climate. I don't know how to use air quotation marks.

speaker-0 (35:56)

When people do this, I don't really know what that means. Quotation marks are hard.

speaker-1 (36:00)

Nothing.

Boo! As a climate issue, but it's a human rights issue which automatically makes it a planetary rights issue. Right? Because how can we, when we talk about blue collar versus white collar jobs, ⁓ worry, maybe not we because we're checking our privilege here, right? Families or people working who are going paycheck for paycheck, they have to put their kids through school, like... ⁓

who emigrated for the safety of their family and their children in a new country. They have no fucking time to worry about this. And that's okay. So long as there are ⁓ people who are privileged like us, government who needs to be accountable, who needs to hold private sector accountable to build one affordable housing, to create social systems that ⁓ empower but also support, you know, like

rehabilitating, for example, homeless people or people who've been ⁓ incarcerated back into society or people who simply like had to drop out of school to go to work to feed the parents to survive, right? People who got abducted, parents got abducted by ice.

Yeah, but anyways, my point is that we need to re-evaluate our economic model and there are already nations and countries. ⁓ Nations are countries. That are already adopting this. So with all of this panic and we did touch on sovereignty, right? Ownership, although we didn't answer who should be what, I think we should maybe shift gears to

What the fuck should we be doing about all of this? Right? Maybe we start with the role of... Maybe we talked about the individual a lot, but the role of the state. What is their role? Because, you know, we shouldn't all individually... It's like the fucking recycling problem. You need to recycle, except that's just propaganda. Or...

speaker-0 (38:13)

The

only reason that the planet is burning is because you forgot to put that plastic bottle in the blue bin 13 years ago. It's your fault. Yeah. Why would you say something so controversial yet so bright?

speaker-1 (38:25)

And it was shipped to Malaysia to be sat in a landfill. ⁓

speaker-0 (38:32)

cool, we're in good shape. I think that it's a good point that thinking about reshaping the economic system to be more conducive to being able to handle the climate problem and to handle all of these socially important issues in a way that is going to make space for these kinds of conversations too. I think that when you talk about

what we can actually do to reduce that panic in getting towards what the role of government is and policymakers.

That is a subject that always makes me kind of mad. I think when it comes to the subject of data in particular, because obviously we can't talk about, we've got a whole podcast to talk about how government should play a role in, fixing the climate at large, but in the context of data, I think that there are.

regulations that are out there for the state of California, for the European Union that are trying to give back some respect of data ownership to people to protect the individual. But then I think that there is this question of the environmental data, of the climate data, and how we are trying to balance this push towards solving the climate crisis by

collecting data that can inform our actions, not collecting so much more data that we need to know everything about the climate, but enough that we can say, this is the next thing that we need to address, or this is the next major issue around climate that is staring us in the face that we should jump into right away. You know, what's the next ozone layer? Having those kinds of data is important, but that fine line that is being walked there with

You know, we let's continue to have environmental regulatory data being collected and being mandated in some capacity. And let's avoid getting into this realm of surveillance of data collection, collecting information about environment in the world in order to get towards the climate solutions we're interested in and somehow also not focusing on trying to track people who are migrating across borders using that same exact data.

I think that gets to be a very fine issue, a very fine line.

speaker-1 (40:53)

It is, yeah, no, I agree with you. think it is a fine line, but it's also very idealistic, maybe you're naive of us to assume that all people are the majority people in positions currently in positions of power in state or state agencies will.

not abuse and or think of using that data that is already being collected for surveillance or nefarious reasons. they're lobbying shouldn't exist. anyway, so, you know, like big tech lobbies, right? ⁓ Who have more budget than most states, like nation states. And so how can...

you know, we as grassroots movements or ⁓ even smaller agencies or people working, know, good people working in the state ⁓ combat against this because it's about the power of financing and thus like influence, right? So I wonder when we talk about climate data or environmental data is if we should completely

⁓ privatize in a co-op model, any data that continues to be produced, ⁓ hosted on like local servers. and we've done it before in the past. can do it again. If they're not going to take responsibility, accountability for their citizens, we will do it. Right. Take to the streets. ⁓

So then it builds like, hey, we can do it, we've done it, and then build the pressure of you need to take responsibility for this. Now I must say, the time has come and people are stepping up, people, individuals who are community members, not people who just wanna lead communities, ⁓ who just wanna be politicians, people who actually want to do good and then assume positions or are voted into positions of...

in the political structure. So I think my point is if we take it into the private sector, but in co-op and grassroots movements, it will actually refeed into, you know, like the systemic structure and rebuild it into something that flourishes because then we're building capacity for leaders and, know, like Mamdani who probably already exists, but needs the ⁓ support needs to understand the opportunities that they have to

ascend or step up to the civic responsibility rules. And that doesn't have to be one singular individual. It could be many people in a community and that feeds up on the county, state, know, ⁓ country level.

speaker-0 (43:54)

I am. I like this. I like this a lot. I like what you're saying. it also, it's giving me this image that I think is bringing it home for me. I have that panic of...

speaker-1 (43:59)

you

speaker-0 (44:10)

giving government any more control over data collection can be a scary thing. And I think that this is the trauma that I'm experiencing as somebody living in the U.S. right now that is watching all of my favorite environmental data sets be torn asunder, watching all of my environmental data sets be torn asunder. ⁓ So it's that fear that I have that that's stemming from, but this idea of moving this kind of data ownership away from government and back to the community.

is something that warms my heart and also I can see it. I can see that vision of it feeding back to government at the end of the day rather than placing this ownership of the data in the hands of the government to begin with and giving them the responsibility of

generating these things, owning these things, maintaining them, taking it back to community members who can have a say in this data is helpful, it is representative, these are the ways that it should be applied. Having that power in that space means that

there is now this ability to move towards these end goals that may not be the direct purpose of that data in the first place, but is still socially beneficial for the people in these communities. Whereas government can take data and apply it to different scenarios that are going to be.

beneficial in their eyes, that can be harmful, that can be very detrimental. Having it in the hands of the community means that we can start to reveal things that are actually needed for these people. And that idea of having community ownership.

be the primary point of this data and giving government the space to aid in that process by saying, hey, we've also got these collection methods that we can feed into that, but you get to keep ownership. That feels like something that is not only feasible. I can see that absolutely being an existing system, but it also gives rise to community leadership to your point. You get the mom nominees of the world because these are people that are experiencing

what it means to have power as a community member and to see a path forward for leadership and change in your own community. That's so cool. I like that. Nobody reminds me of like, there's the organizations out there, like the environmental data governance initiative, which is under the public environmental data partnership. Got it. Got the names.

that is so focused on like, the government had all these great environmental data sets and under the Trump administration, they're tearing it down. So we're gonna put it back up, we're gonna change it, we're gonna make it better and we're gonna solicit feedback from communities about is this environmental justice map actually representing you or is this wrong and how can we improve it? That opportunity to suddenly build it again.

speaker-1 (47:10)

think that's a great example because, you know, like that initiative, like many more that is coming in has, you know, come out of not just the defunding by the Trump administration, but just all over the world, especially when you're looking at the privilege of the global north extracting data from the global south, creating technologies, innovations with that data and then not giving it back to the global south. And then you also have brain drain because of that, you know, from nations that are

bit less developed or economically developed, ⁓ means that with what you're describing, we're able to ensure relevance and usability by connecting the collectors with the end users and vice versa, so that it's a living and breathing organism, data governance and structures, rather than something that's stagnated and that's 100 % either forgotten or controlled by governments.

So I feel in this sense, the state should act as a facilitator, a financier, ⁓ help capacity building, right? For communities to have or continue to have sovereign, continue to have, maybe we've never had it, ⁓ sovereignty over data. I think perhaps, actually, everything that we've talked about, if we can help the listeners or the watchers. ⁓

summarize is pulling from, you know, like the new framework and all of our thinking is that the actions or the path forward is access of data without gatekeeping. Right. So public environmental data enables justice in all of its form for planetary and human rights. ⁓ Yes, we acknowledge it also maybe enables oppression, but there's risk in everything. And I believe.

I have hope, I faith in humanity. ⁓ so instead of restricting the access that we have to environmental data and who has power to like take the action, community-led white box determine the visibility of all of this data, which means we'll have opportunity, better opportunity to actually create good impact. Second point is coordination, which is what we just talked about by community-led governance.

⁓ data within its context. then that allows clear pathways to action, right? And then, ⁓ and then the fourth would be power distribution or redistribution and information sharing, right? Who controls the data? Sovereignty requires community ownership of the tools, economic models, where data creators benefit from the value generated by that data, global south, global north.

also within economic structures in the same society and governance models where affected communities also make the decisions with that data. Access without gatekeeping, coordination on all fronts, clear pathways to action, power redistribution and information sharing. Thank you. Good night. I'm done.

speaker-0 (50:27)

Thank you and good night! Well done. I think that put a very good point on it. We have joy.

speaker-1 (50:33)

Have joy.

speaker-0 (50:36)

I like, I like this. feel, I don't know about you, but I feel like my panic level, and I know that like, we, we did research, we were preparing for these conversations. Like we think about these things all the time. We talk about these things all the time. My panic level doesn't usually go down at the end of our conversations. I think that this format that we have, where we are actually trying to not only label our anxieties in the panic that we're feeling, but getting towards this end goal of why

Why could we be less panicked? What could the future look like? What can we imagine as being something that would be different, regenerative and liberatory versus just more of the same and get out there and vote? know, it feels like we've actually got some path forward. I can see this future for the first time and my panic is going from here, like back down to here. It's still panicked. We're like at a four out of a 10, but we're not at like a nine out of 10. You know what mean?

I'm worried, it's straight up. Isn't it?

speaker-1 (51:35)

This is therapy.

I don't know, maybe. I agree with you. also, like, you know, the reason that we started this podcast is not really for the sake of starting our podcast. It's just spend time with each other and talk about the things that are interesting to us, but also figuring out ways where we can individually take, you know, we have agency, take some sort of action.

on just on the tail of what you said about like our excitement and doing all of this research is I just wanted to inform everyone that's here with us today that we will be publishing a couple of articles to release all of the information that we have gathered ⁓ and also ⁓ to release some kind of action packets of what you could potentially do if you're located in the global north, the global south, if you're indigenous.

And hopefully with examples of what's already being done and links that will inspire you to take action or hold fire under asses of people who need to be doing their jobs.

speaker-0 (52:46)

Ass fire, let's go.

speaker-1 (52:50)

I've got the gasoline that's the only thing petroleum is good for.

speaker-0 (52:54)

⁓

Yo, hold up, that's on a t-shirt right now. That's got to be on a t-shirt right now. Go to the new data shop that doesn't exist and buy that t-shirt immediately.

I might get that tattooed on my face.

speaker-1 (53:14)

You know, I know we'll do the whole thing. Oh, thank you for listening, but thank you for listening.

speaker-0 (53:18)

Yeah, thank you for listening. Before, thank you for listening. You absolutely showed up with us. I hope that at the end of the day, I hope that we are making this feeling of people getting to be less panicked. I hope that you get to panic with us for a moment and enjoy watching us flail for a little bit. And then I hope that you also are feeling a little bit of hope. And even if your panic level is going down by one level and not four levels, that is still a step in the right direction.

speaker-1 (53:44)

I mean, that's a wrap.